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Intial setup - database placement

 
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Intial setup - database placement - 3/31/2008 4:56:43 PM   
lboruchow

 

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im working on where to place certain sccm server roles in my environment
hoping someone can give me guidance/opinions on the following:

* any reason not to put sql on the same box as the central site?
* should wsus really be on a seperate server (best practice)?
* if seperating sql and site to seperate boxes, should WSUS database be SQL embedded or use a seperate instance on the sql box? 

the environment is small right now, and i totally could get away loading everything on one box, but i want to plan for company growth, etc.

i also dont have a good handle on how much overhead the WSUS piece will have... from what ive read, folks recommend seperating it from the site server.

thanks
lee
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 3/31/2008 5:21:46 PM   
rheuermann

 

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Can you provide more information on how many drives your server will have and how many clients you plan to serve?  This will help the forum answer this...

In the meantime, you will want to put WSUS on a seperate server.  The reporting in Configuartion Manager requires 32 bit (IIS) and WSUS is on 64 bit, making the reporting piece incompatible with sharing the same server as WSUS. 

Hope that helps,

Ray

(in reply to lboruchow)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 3/31/2008 6:09:52 PM   
lboruchow

 

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well, honestly i pretty much have the ability to dictate whatever server specs and requirements are needed
another thing to keep in mind, is everything is virtualized and SAN backended, so im leaning toward splitting out the site system roles a good bit.
# of drives is not limited
initial client load will be under 500, but that could increase in a year, so i want to make sure everything is capable of supporting for the future
yes i could throw everything on one server and get by, but id really rather not do that

current setup is one pri site, one sec site, and a bunch of branch dp's off of the pri site (network layout is weird, and almost every remote location is serverless)
RE: wsus, when splitting it off onto its own box, would you just use the sql embedded install?  or have the wsus database reside on the sccm database server?

my initial thoughts are to do the following:

Central Site
-------------
1 VM - SQL, 2 instances (one for SCCM central site, one for WSUS), SMS provider
1 VM - WSUS, SUP, MP
1 VM - Primary Site, DP, FSP, RP
*(1 beefy workstation per remote site will be a branch DP)

2ndary Site
------------
1 VM - Secondary site, proxy MP, DP

Another area of concern is that i cant find any documentation that indicates minimum system requirements for each site system ROLE... so im not sure how much RAM or disk space to allocate for each VM

(in reply to rheuermann)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 3/31/2008 7:27:02 PM   
rheuermann

 

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what is the maximum client growth you expect to see in the next 5 years or at least the life of your ConfigMgr setup...?

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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 3/31/2008 8:04:12 PM   
lboruchow

 

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i hate to put a number on that sort of thing, but if i have to, i would put a maximum at 5000 clients (client and server os) in 5 years
that should give me enough buffer to plan out accordingly

obviously, if i can consolidate roles, thatd be great - i just dont want to be "just getting by"

< Message edited by lboruchow -- 3/31/2008 8:05:42 PM >

(in reply to rheuermann)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 4/1/2008 1:30:16 AM   
rheuermann

 

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To recap and help out with some answers (impressions from the Microsoft document library)

Generally, the 500 client load should be easily handled by a single server with SQL and ConfigMgr installed on the same box.

One Microsoft Presentation did suggest installing the bare minimum on a box, such as status fallback point, managment point and put roles initially on a seperate box such as a distribution point - just to see what the load was like before combining into a single box.  However, with a decent server - 500 clients is probably not a big deal.

In one call with Microsoft, support described ConfigMgr very similar in load (minus the new roles introduced) to SMS 2003 except with some increased disk I/0, slightly more database activity and significant increase in transaction log.

There are no good sizing guidelines for ConfigMgr yet, except for some upper limits for roles found at:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb680869.aspx
As you can see, nothing here unless you grow beyond 4000 clients for a single distribution point.
Microsoft intends to use System Center Capacity Planner for ConfigMgr sizing but has not yet released the models necessary to support it.  (When I tried to use the beta version it was wildly off base).  In another call Microsoft suggested that I deploy Operations Manager to monitor ConfigMgr to get a handle on loading.

In your case, you can move SQL off the box to another server or even better, sql cluster with san backend.  In this case, if you already such a SQL install ready to support your databases, then there's no extra cost.  I see recommendations from Microsoft that your SQL backend would best run under 64 bit and could be used to support your operations manager databases as well (if you deploy opsmgr).  However, your SQL servers should do nothing but SQL, be on a well connected local LAN (1Gig) with little or no traffic on it from other apps.  In short, you may want a fast, 1G lan and isolated from other traffic. 

If you don't already have another SQL server 2005 built then your licensing costs are much lower when SQL is on the same box and is only used to support ConfigMgr and no other databases.  You can use licesnsing "Configuration Manager with SQL technology" rather than pay the per processor charge for SQL.  AND you don't have to worry about lan latency.

Perhaps with a max of 5000 clients, I would consider maintaining current SMS services but also add status fallback point to a central site server.

I'd start with a single server that will host ConfigMgr and SQL on the same box as a central site server.  It would be the management point for your initial 500 clients as well as a distribution point.  Though you have a SAN backend, I would consider the server or SAN equivlent of 4 mirrors, mirror one is used for OS, SQL and ConfigMgr programs, Mirror 2 is used for databases as well as tempdb, Mirror 3 used for transaction log as well as transaction log for tempdb - perhaps also for the OS page file, Mirror 4 for the inboxes.

ConfigMgr server would be a 32 bit OS because if you attempt to install ConfigMgr (primarily a 32 bit app) on a 64 bit OS, Operations Manager will not be able to monitor it since it cannot monitor anything in the 32 bit subsystem of a 64 bit OS.  You might consider using Windows Server 2003 Standard x86 to save further licensing costs.  You will effectively max out at 3.5 or 3.75 GB with 4GB installed because of the hard limit 32 bit has on the addressing scheme (it cannot access beyond 4GB and the BOIS needs to reserve some of it for PCI and other bus devices).  But using enterprise 32 bit, may not offer much more because there would be a minor performance hit with the methods needed by the OS to work around the 32 bit 4GB OS limit... primarily I get the feeling that the Disk i/o and network adapter will become bottlenecks before the RAM does - but others on the forum may have seen different.  Go ahead an get two quad processors as well.

Next, WSUS wants to run on 64 bit OS and so this becomes your second server and is configured by ConfigMgr as a Software Update Point.  The only role you cannot add here is the reporting point.  It wants a 32 bit OS and IIS application to run on and is incompatible.

As your client growth begins, you can create an additional distribution point on another virtual server, a new management point and assign new clients there could be an option as well.  Personally, I plan to create a new child site for two major groups of clients and place management points and distribution points on those servers - keeping reporting and status fallback point on the central site.

Other roles that have a heavy impact and may be best suited on a different server include User Status Migration Point and Operating System Deployment.

Hopefully this helps, the planning docs on the technet library are very good if you need more.  In short, I think you can easily get away with a two servers, one for configmgr and one for wsus, as client count grows, you have lots of options to deploy additional managment points, distribution points or child sites if necessary to assign those clients to...

Ray

(in reply to lboruchow)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 4/1/2008 7:48:42 AM   
lboruchow

 

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Ray - thanks for the great info

I spent all last night trying to find capacity planning info, and all microsoft has guidance for is for the extreme large end of the scale.  i also found the capacity planner excel sheet (beta2?) to be a little unreliable.
i found some info where folks said at the very least to move sql to a seperate x64 box also.  thats a bit different from what im used to in sms 2003, where it was generally accepted that it should be on the site server.

so the only questions i have left (if you dont mind answering) are:

* if you move sql to seperate x64 box, do you move the sms provider there too?  or is that going to cause the scom monitoring issue?
* with wsus/sup on a seperate box, would you keep the database as local (using sql express), or have it as a seperate instance on wherever the sms site database is?
* seeing that i am stuck with vmware here, isnt vmware notorious for handling sql poorly?  any truth to that?

thanks again

(in reply to rheuermann)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 4/1/2008 11:31:26 AM   
rheuermann

 

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Yep, the capacity planner and sizing info are lacking....

quote:

if you move sql to seperate x64 box, do you move the sms provider there too?  or is that going to cause the scom monitoring issue?

I don't know the answer to that one, but the sms provider would be the only role there and there isn't a choice about it - so there's not much you can do...
Since you may max out at 5,000 clients, I think it would be better to just have SQL on the same box as your site server.  As long as it's a beefy server, then you shouldn't have a problem - make sure the database and transaction logs have seperate drive volumes.  Also, as clients grow you can re-assign them to other child site servers, move various roles, etc, until your initial server is pretty much left with status fallback point & host the database.  I have not done any deployments with SQL on a seperate box - so can't really provide additional info except links in the technet library:
Deploying to another SQL server:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb693554.aspx
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb680513.aspx
Moving the site database
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb680707.aspx
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb693923.aspx

quote:

* with wsus/sup on a seperate box, would you keep the database as local (using sql express), or have it as a seperate instance on wherever the sms site database is?

Again, your client count is max of 5,000 and a default install of WSUS with local database on the same box should be able to handle it fine - just get a good server with extra drives and gig nic...

quote:

seeing that i am stuck with vmware here, isnt vmware notorious for handling sql poorly?  any truth to that?

Not sure about that either - knowing that the application is CPU, drive and NIC intensive, I don't think it's a good candidate for virtualization.  However, Microsoft does support it on Windows Virtual Server but not officially on VMWare.  I can only speak to the problems I found on SMS 2003 on Microsoft Virtual Server where I did notice a significant performance hit.  Mostly due to server instances shareing the same RAID 5 volume and so I was not able to effectively move peices of the app to their own independent drives.  The NIC performace took a hit due to other apps needing to using the same resource and each instance is assigned to a CPU when initialized so mutliple CPUs can't be effectively leveraged by an virtual instance.
Our org is just getting started with VMware and I don't know yet whether the same problems exist or not.  We have a new SQL admin that claims they have deployed SQL just fine on VMware and is planning to do so.  When we contacted their old department they said the deployment was fine (HP aided deployment) but it was maxing out their switch (a wierd, vague comment).  I don't really see any advantage in virtializing SQL on a box when SQL will be the only thing installed!  -except for the possibility of making the Virtual Instance easier to move to another box.  I'd rather see the money spent on clustering.  However, I see another thread where they are installing on vmware without a problem.  Otherwise I'd put a call to your Microsoft Support contacts and make sure they will support you when something goes south.  Certainly you will have more company in peer deployments and a more comfortable Microsoft Support staff should you not use vmware - which would reduce your support costs.

If your org is flush with cash, maybe voice your reservations in writing for using VMware especially when when the server is not going to support any other instances, does it make sense to introduce another OS layer?  Explore long term monitoring solutions that are the equivelent to Operations Manager - what's the cost impact?  Otherwise you could convince them to spend some consulting $s with Microsoft to come in and design your solution - then see what shakes out of that...

Ultimately you do what management asks you to do...


(in reply to lboruchow)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 4/2/2008 4:17:18 PM   
lboruchow

 

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Thanks again for all of the information, and for your responses
VERY helpful in helping me think this through

(in reply to rheuermann)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 5/1/2008 1:41:55 PM   
rheuermann

 

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Currently a MMS and have heard some new opinions on this subject:  - Brad Anderson's keynote mentioned that the slight performance loss of ConfigMgr running in the 32 bit subsystem of a 64 bit OS has no noticable impact until 50,000 clients.  In a birds of feather meeting, some there mentioned that their tests showed a benefit of ConfigMgr running on 64 bit OS (faster performance noticable) when there are 10,000 clients to 50,000.  So 64 bit may be a good choice if your client count is between 10 to 45k.  No gains for client counts under 10K.  Again this was their opinion and the numbers are from memory, so take them with a grain of salt...

In addition, Brad mentioned that have SQL located on a seperate box is becoming the new best practice.  I sounded like this would be for larger client counts, I'm missed the number probably 8K or higher?  - BUT, a 1GB dedicated connection to a seperated SQL box is required to get the better performance then with SQL installed on the same box.

BOF (birds of a feather) meeting, those there noted that use of Operations Manager to monitor ConfigMgr running on a 32 bit subsystem on 64bit OS is still a problem.  Maybe it can see some performance measurements but I did not hear what the limited list included.

BOF also surprised me that there were those running ConfigMgr SP1 Reporting Point on a 64 bit OS that it flips to running in the 32 bit subsystem without a problem.  This is contrary to last years presentations but perhaps this has changed in SP1.

(in reply to lboruchow)
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RE: Intial setup - database placement - 5/2/2008 2:45:42 AM   
jnelson993


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Dell has an interesting doc on scaling SQL out on VMWare.  I think the problems with SQL on VMWare has been the whole kernel-mode vs. user-mode context switching, but the way I understand SQL 2005, there's a lot less of that and thus it's a bit better (although ideal is a physical box in my book).
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/power/ps4q06-20060405-Muirhead.pdf

The number of orders/transactions or whatever that they were able to get out of SQL is high enough for many companies demands.  You'll have to test for yourself, but if you're using SQL 2005 I think you'll be fine for the size you are.


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